"But I miss you most of all my darling
When autumn leaves start to fall"
Hisoutensoku is an expansion to Touhou 10.5, made by Tasofro with ZUN's approval. It's a fast paced fighting game featuring all your favorites from the touhou project.
Sign up at
https://challonge.com/tournaments/signup/DCgTRNWqwL or reply so I can add you manually.
View the bracket at
https://challonge.com/wapsoku9I've setup the game myself so all you have to do is download
https://files.wapchan.org/sokupack.zip, run SokuLauncher.exe, and choose the first option (giuroll). may need to update the launcher first.
Wiki:
https://hisouten.koumakan.jp/This tournament will be livestreamed at
https://stream.wapchan.org/r/sokutourneyWe may test out 2v2 matches and Soku2 afterwards.
PREVIOUS CHAMPS:
I - superplapper
II - Az
III - Az
IV - sixty
V - Duck
VI - Az
VII - superplapper
VIII - sixty
Sign me as subzero
Sign up Mado
Please sign up sixty
Practice matches?
>>2941Hop on 5.16.30.172:10800 with giuroll!
>>2942GGs
Damn I tilted to much on the lose streak by I managed to regain myself later, hopefully I'll be in better form today.
>>2944Mashing? haha I was abusing that damn Z key, you can check the replays if you want to.
>>2945I meant mashing as in trying to counterattack during pressure, not as pressing button at random. Iku's 5A is faster than I expected from a move of such reach, only one frame slower than Aya's jabs.
sign me up as Az pls
>>2947I meant as a play of words, but yes I was spamming 5A and 4A during pressure just to see if it did anything, it's just one of those rounds that I just give up and start experimenting.
ggs plapper good luck in the tourney
STARTING THE TOURNAMENT NOW
STARTING FINALS
Ggs everyone and congratulations to Az!
>>2954Yup, pretty much. When I first saw 2v2 soku I thought "damn so many new strategical possibilites and coop combos become possible" but in reality it's barely possible to keep track of what's going on, let alone planning some blockstrings and combos. But maybe we'll adapt in future and will be able to play it more consciously, who knows.
Should we have more 2v2 soku tomorrow?
4PTagSoku crashes when I try to test it (but I can see it also is indeed 2vs2), so it's not an option for now, though tell me if it works on your machine so I can investigate further.
>>2957>Yup, pretty much. When I first saw 2v2 soku I thought "damn so many new strategical possibilites and coop combos become possible" but in reality it's barely possible to keep track of what's going on, let alone planning some blockstrings and combosfiguring out how Switch works helped me a ton in getting comfortable with 2v2, when you have full control over who you want to attack and when to switch targets the game becomes a lot less confusing and more interesting/natural
there ARE a ton of possibilities with it, the issue is that the optimized stuff is not something two people with no communication whatsoever could possibly come up with on the fly. unless you were to sit down and lab combos/pressure/setups with a partner or something, it's pretty much impossible that anyone could get to that point. at least that's what i'd think
on a side note, i recently found that the TagSoku mod can be played 1v1 (
https://github.com/SokuDev/TagSoku/releases) and is (seemingly) compatible with giuroll, so it could actually be played online reliably. here's a webm of what it looks like, and to me it looks like it could be very interesting, even though right now i have no clue what i'm doing and i still can't figure out how to use meter as an assist
also it's compatible with soku2, which is another mod that would be cool to play here. i've already played it with another anon and the new characters are unique and fun to play
>>2959> figuring out how Switch works helped me a ton in getting comfortable with 2v2Oh about that, how? Does it switch your character during movement/blocking, or only when you're standing still/free falling?
> here's a webm of what it looks like, and to me it looks like it could be very interesting, even though right now i have no clue what i'm doing and i still can't figure out how to use meter as an assist Yup this and it's potential 4P variation seem like a lot of fun as well even just for the switching characters in-game, I'd be up to play it sometime.
4PTagsoku still crashes even after various technomagical rituals though, so we may be forced into only playing 1v1.
>>2960>Does it switch your character during movement/blocking, or only when you're standing still/free falling? as far as i understand, you can switch targets at any time, but the change itself only happens once your character can move again. so it's more like a buffer
>spoileri mean i'm down to keep regular 2v2 soku as the go-to 4p variant. adding the tag mechanics, which are all completely new, might be a lot to ask considering we'd need all players to learn them, and we can barely get 4 players as is
Bringing back the topic about learning character specific strategies, is there a way or guides that teach you how to do properly learn a character?
The wiki guide that was posted in the tourney is useful, but it doesn't say you the do and don'ts when picking up a character, mostly button combination and variations.
Of course this is useful when you are in the right moment, but I want to learn how to create these moments so I can use what I learned and practiced.
Is this something you learn as you go with experience?
>>2962i don't know what's the guide that got posted in the tourney so i couldn't tell you what's missing, a link would be helpful
>but it doesn't say you the do and don'ts when picking up a character, mostly button combination and variations.most characters should have specific guides, unfortunately most of them probably locked in the depths of a discord server because the larger community fucking sucks at keeping their resources in place despite the fact that they already own a literal wiki that's entirely dedicated to the game. if you are willing to go dumpster diving (or ask someone to do so for your specific character) then that's an option
>Is this something you learn as you go with experience?mostly yes, but you can also learn from other people's experiences, which in most cases is even faster. by that i mean, watching and asking people who already went through that process. there are two very convenient channels that compile these for you
https://www.youtube.com/@HisoutensokuHighlevelreplayshttps://www.youtube.com/@SpellBreakSokuit's even better if you compare that to your own replays to see what those players do in a given situation and what you would have done instead. the more questions you ask yourself, the more information you'll gain from these
and obviously asking for specific advice always helps, granted our playerbase is rather small but still, most of us probably have something we could learn from anyone we play with
>>2963>i don't know what's the guide that got posted in the tourney so i couldn't tell you what's missing, a link would be helpfuljust a link to the wiki -
https://hisouten.koumakan.jp/wiki/Touhou_Hisoutensoku_Wikihttps://hisouten.koumakan.jp/wiki/Aya_Shameimaru - example of a character subject
https://hisouten.koumakan.jp/wiki/System_Cards - also pretty useful
>>2963>A link would be helpfulHere
https://hisouten.koumakan.jp/wiki/Touhou_Hisoutensoku_WikiClick on any character and click on strategy.
>>2964>>2965yeah those are pretty good, their only problem is that they might be outdated by now since many of those articles haven't been updated in nearly a decade. for example compare this
https://hisouten.koumakan.jp/wiki/Sanae_Kochiya/Strategyto this
https://docs.google.com/document/d/11DQcf80h4wlYcFQaxHCUXePqaeLVKVby9EMLgBXoDP0/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.zhrzymqrvxx4regardless, they are good reads but it's not like you need to memorize the whole thing (i personally hardly ever used guides like that, although they might be more useful to other people), nor will you improve much if you just learn all of that but have issues actually applying it in real matches. so if you do decide to go that route and hard-study those things, then make sure you do it little by little so you don't end up spreading yourselves too thin
>>2966Do you have a doc like that for Reimu and Iku?
>>2967i could look for them, if i find any i'll post them later since i have to go out now
>>2962>>2962> is there a way or guides that teach you how to do properly learn a character?I'd say "learning a character" has two subtasks.
First is to learn basic tight blockstrings and combos, which wiki provides most help with, if you're lucky your character also has combo trials in corresponding mod to help you learn them. That's the easier part.
Secondly, you have to learn player interactions and matchups. And that's when wiki won't give you ready-to-use solutions. You gotta investigate yourself what beats what, how to compensate for your character's weaknesses, what to do if your opponent decides to react to your blockstrings/setups. Replays can help with that, but I find myself very often in situation when what I see in replays just doesn't happen in my games as one or both players play character way too differently/my character's player jobs. Most of my development of this subtask was done by inventing bicycles each time, which is probably not as effective but fun and gives the "path of warrior" sense to your growth.
That being said, we'd probably profit from having replays of games that were played by people directly from here getting publicly analysed in the thread once in a while, I think it could boost everyone's general skill growth pace quite significantly.
>>2969What mod?
> how to compensate for your character's weaknesses, what to do if your opponent decides to react to your blockstrings/setups.This is basically it, it's something very fundamental that I don't have right now and I want to improve.
>>2969>That being said, we'd probably profit from having replays of games that were played by people directly from here getting publicly analysed in the thread once in a while, I think it could boost everyone's general skill growth pace quite significantly.i'd be down to give that try, although i'm not sure what the optimal way to go about it would be. making a webm out of every little interaction worthy of analysis sounds like a pain, i guess the next best option is to upload a recording of a full match and then replying to that with timestamps
>>2971You can find it in sokulauncher->settings->mod->download. I grinded Aya's combos with it at first since she luckily has a module, but not all characters do.
>>2972I was thinking about something like
1) Set is played
2) One-two games where anon thinks he did everything right/did nothing wrong/has no idea what should've been done at all are recorded, videos and replays are sent in thread
3) Tips and tricks are given based on them, resulting in more exact and directly applicable discussion
>>2973yeah that sounds good, if anyone has replays they'd like to get commented on we could give it a try
>>2974https://mega.nz/file/ZB9TWCDa#B8sps99Sr6SZ6SESuUIt3ZDWm6ADEw2qIiJPMjMzk4gknock yourself out, ones in the Az folder are particularly great because you can see me getting demolished by all kinds of different characters
What the fuck
I would also ask to switch off the picture captcha for this board, for the sake of inviting new players in. It might not only be too intimidating for them to do, but also scare some of them off.
>>2975>>2976>>2977>>2978>>2979>>2982I imagined it'd be a bit more specific thing… As in, fresh replays that you don't feel competent analysing yourself. I doubt someone would go through everyone's entire battle history.
Also yeah what the fuark lol.
>>2984I think anon's internet went kabom
Also the small reply window is gone.
>>2967>Do you have a doc like that for Reimuhttps://docs.google.com/document/d/1d9Fsae43EmL3LCeW9RscgXwIn4fkV3XNAJU7Q2n7w0k/edit?tab=t.0
>and Ikushe has articles in the wiki that are in other user's profiles, see
https://hisouten.koumakan.jp/wiki/User:FearNagae/Iku_Stuffthen there's this thing that is so insanely optimized i don't think anyone in their right minds should bother until they are at the very top level, but i'll still post it because it's a thing and the videos might at least give some ideas of what's possible
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ke9B8nmNNmNCH4w4Na0UTiqFG1azFIulGpMSxzVIHKk/edit?tab=t.0
>>2985Didn't work with captcha
Will probably try to fix the bottom reply box first and then see about quick reply
>>2981Not sure this is possible since the captcha relies on a modified posting script and I don't think you can redirect that per board
If the captcha is really an issue I can add a cookie so you don't have to do it constantly
>>2984they don't even have to be very recent replays, but having a specific replay, preferably in video format so everyone can be on the same page, would be ideal
>>2987Was captcha that neccesary? Surely there'd be at least one person for janny position to clean up pizza…
>>2987Oh ok then.
>>2986Alright this should be useful
>>2989cp spammers are really that bad yes
>>2989>>2991Did something happen?
>>2989I can assure you that no one on the staff enjoys having to clean up that sort of stuff and hopefully this will drive them away for good
>>2992No, I just built this feature out for 39chan (where I'm one of the admins) and brought it here since I figure it could help prevent spam. Hikari3 rolled out a similar captcha recently that massively reduced the amount of CSAM spam they got.
first post testing the captcha
soku
>>2996yeah, see me at wap lobby?
>>2994Another post testing capthca
sneaked and peeped
>>2998looks like the captcha is working for everybody so far
soku?
>>3006Yeah, are you alive?
Soku gaming?
>>3009Ggs!
More soku in about an hour?
>>3010i'll be free in about an hour from now if no one else shows up
Soku gaming?
>>3016nta but i'll be around in a bit over an hour
>>3018Hop on 5.16.26.26:10800 with giuroll!
soku?
Mountain vapour is such a goofy weather, probably my favourite at this point. Only it could have saved my stupid ass replacing sure to be countered 2c with 5c tornado and invalidating both hangeki and 3c. Believe in mountain vapour and you shall be granted salvation…
>>3022Ggs! With introduction of midscreen dollthrow mixup is scary once again, hard day.
Soku
>>3024I'm waiting in the lobby if you still want to play.
>>3025GGs
Those were some good matches, I'm glad there's still people on my level here.
>>3026GGs, thanks for the games.
soku?
>>3029still up? i'll be in the lobby
soku anyone else? i'll be in wap lobby for a bit longer
>>3032ggs
Soku gaming?
>>3036Hop on 5.16.26.26:10800 with giuroll!
soku?
>>3036Rehosting in a sec, I might have done something wrong with window resizer mod.
>>3036Rehosting after rebooting router at 5.16.26.26:10800, my net decided to shit itself for literally no reason and just enough to make experience miserable.
>>3040ggs, gotta leave now
thanks for hosting
>>3041Ggs, sorry for the hosting troubles.
Time for (humiliating) replay analysis it seems, I can't just ignore how helpless I am against Sanae. It is acceptable to job to anyone, but not to Sanae.
https://files.catbox.moe/ve2329.repI'll record it in video format soon as well.
>>3042Cat/litterbox just refuses to receive videos of this size from me for whatever reason so here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arY46JlOevoObvious mistakes like fumbled combos aside, what do I do in moments like 0:30, 1:06, 2:13? Provided that Sanae is out of j.8A range (though even if she is I can't feel safe going for it because of effectively invulnerable Kanako dash) or even below me, 2C/j.2C seems like unbeatable cover for Aya, if shot in neutral it's almost guarantees Sanae taking turn.
>>3043Well if there is a single thing Sanae isn't terrible at, it's neutral. If anything she's actually really good at that, you can't really expect to bypass it easily and bully her, there are many tools you just have to respect and wait out until you are in a better position to do something about them. j2C is one of them, but land cancel j5C, wind tunnel, even Kanako dash with appropriate wind are all safe once set up and there's really not much you can do unless you successfully force a mistake and are sure you are in a position to punish
>if shot in neutral it's almost guarantees Sanae taking turnNot quite because (if played around properly) she can't really get anything going off of it either, other than a stray hit at best. It's more so just saying "give me some breathing room pls"
Going through some particular moments:
>0:30The reason I go for ceiling hug j2C there is precisely because I want some space to make it back to the center of the screen. You are going to see that exact sequence a couple more times in that game, and it's all for that same reason. The instant you whiff that j6A it is clear that there is not much you can do about that j2C so what should you do? Just retreat and graze it. You would have only been able to punish that if rather than j6D > 66A you had instantly chased me to the ceiling, but when you recognize that your punish window is gone all you can do is respect it. Also note the immediate tech trap right after my landing j5A, because those aggressive techs are a repeating pattern and end up costing quite a bit of HP against a character that otherwise struggles doing damage
>0:40That's an extremely risky, totally unnecessary attempt at a neutral skip. In general if I set up a Suwako skill (bubble/mine), I have a massive advantage just by staying around that area, so not only did I have no reason to run and jump into that 214x, but you flying straight into Suwako was best case scenario for me. Yet again it's one of those cases where you are sort of forced to play it slow once you give me the space to set up Suwako
>1:06Maybe the mistake is obvious but it's still worth pointing out, spirit management is an important thing. The j5B > j6C is understandable since it really wasn't a bad option if I had tried to jump at you with an aerial, but the problem is that once you are almost at 0 spirit you still try to jump at me anyways. If you have zero spirit then that's about the worst possible time to try to force an interaction, you had the chance to get away from it instead which probably would have been the better option. Just run away and stall for a bit till you have enough spirit to do something again
>2:13Honestly you are kinda boned at that point, if you have to make a ~70% HP comeback against a character that excels at neutral play then yeah that's a nearly unwinnable situation. If you are forced into that position though then the only thing you can do is navigate through neutral very carefully. Even if you get backed into the corner, Sanae's pressure sucks so it's not like going back to neutral is going to be too hard, but you definitely cannot afford to disrespect strong neutral tools. But yeah I simply started spamming j2Cs because I only needed a single hit and if you don't play perfectly around that then I just win. At that point I was even content if you tried to pressure me because Sanae 2A is a good move so if I mash that the entire time and you trade even once you are dead, so not only do you have to play neutral for an extended period of time but even if you do you have no margin for error in pressure
Also as a side note, I see a lot of j5B > j6Cs in neutral, and I don't see that being very helpful in this match up at all. j5B/j2B is a pretty decent air-to-ground bullet to force me to graze, but the j6Cs don't really cover anything against Sanae. If you force me to graze then I'll also graze through that without any extra commitment, and instead you are now stuck in that animation which is what happened on 0:01 and 1:31. Sanae isn't really the kind of character to spam bullets at you in the air unless she is hugging the ceiling, j5B is terrible and while j5C is pretty good, it's actually so good it will straight up delete your j6C which is what happened in 0:37, so in neither case is it really favorable. Maybe it could have some better uses on land cancel though
Soku
>>3044Thank you, I think I get the matchup now. I imagine proper play would be switching between "glued airtight to Sanae" and "master baiter" modes. Next problem is how do I even bait for "wrong" setups of Sanae's stuff once I get unglued, some things like wind tunnel or Suwako bubble seem to be valid just by the fact of casting them at all. I actually have problem of same nature with Yukari's C lasers that can't be punished without huge commitment, but that's question for another time.
> Sanae 2A is a good move so if I mash that the entire time and you trade even once you are deadJust checked it out and damn it may even be longer than Yuyu's 2A while also having 9F of startup. No repeating f.5As here…
> I see a lot of j5B > j6Cs in neutral, and I don't see that being very helpful in this match up at allYeah this is just me autopiloting, it doesn't really have much use against Sanae. In air idea behind it is to bait opponent to engage in skirmish with his better B bullets (which is most of the cast but not Sanae apparently) and then immediately win it with a C bullet, and in case of graze 66->j.5A but either framedata or my input speed don't really allow it.
>>3045Still up?
soku?
>>3048i think so, can you join the wap lobby?
>>3049unfortunately didn't work out so i'll be in wap lobby in case anyone else wants to play
Rather harsh reminder that lowHP proration exists… Dropping metered combo from 2.5k to 1.9k is just cruel.
>>3051Ggs! Recently I noticed that wiki lists frame advantage for moves, but doesn't tell values for recovery, inflicted blockstun and hitstun frames. Is there a way to look this up?
>>3052ggs again
>but doesn't tell values for recoverythat's just some simple math, e.g. if you have a move which lasts for 30f total, has 10f of startup (so it hits exactly on the 10th frame), and 3 active frames, then the amount of recovery frames will be 30-(9+3)=18
>inflicted blockstunyou can use the number above and listed frame advantage to find this, e.g if that same move is 0 on block then obviously the move will inflict 18 frames worth of blockstun. +1 means it would be 19 frames of blockstun and so on
>and hitstun framesdon't quote me on this one since tasofro works in mysterious ways, but see the "Untech" value in first pic rel, you'll find many pics like this in the wiki. if for whatever reason the move you are looking for isn't listed like this, you can also go into training mode, press F6 if you have RIV mod (i think) and this other thing will pop up, after that you can read the amount of remaining untech frames after hitting with any move. this is only for aerial hitstun though, as far as i remember grounded hitstun is constant. only untech is affected by proration.
2vs2 soku gaming today?
soku?
>>3054i could play some later, in about 1:30 hrs
>>3057Host once you'll be ready.
>>3055>>3057Should we play in 3/4 or try again and see if we can get 4 tomorrow?
>>3057>>3058I'm an idiot and didn't notice that the reply was meant for
>>3054. That was embarrassing…
>>3059either way is fine by me
hopefully someone else decided to join in last minute
>>3060i mean i could host if there's no 2v2 being hosted by then
2vs2 soku
or shadowfight soku if fourth player won't materialize lol is up, hop on
https://parsec.gg/g/332vnhGLvZzMGsmbOGg6AY08886/855982e4/
>>3062I just put my food in the oven ;_;
will join in 10mins or so
>>30621.5vs1.5 soku down, thanks for joining!
Also holy shit what happened on the webm? No way Cirno has 2.5k combo out of 2A.
>>3066ggs, thanks for hosting. connection became really smooth once the resolution was lowered, that felt pretty enjoyable
also in that webm i'm fairly sure you had targeted Alice but didn't turn around because you buffered 2A right out of dash. if so then that's technically a back hit combo, because the game freaks out whenever you hit someone that's behind you (since your actual target is technically behind you) and the hitstun pushback gets all fucked, kinda like with 5sc tornado cross-under setups
add the (lack of) grounded hitstun proration and you have a (probably) infinite 2v2-exclusive combo
>>3067That's gotta be entire new level of setups here. I wonder if such 2A combos can be reasonably lethal though, while 2A doesn't increase limit, it still ticks proration. Is there a minimal value for it?
>>3068>Is there a minimal value for it?i mean it just slowly but surely goes down to 0, not sure how many times you'd have to loop it to get to that point but i'd be surprised if you can make it past 4k damage with mere 2A spam. something similar happens with Sakuya during Private Square, but that's just because time slowdown and timestop also disable pushback. in that case it also stops scaling so aggressively after a certain point
that said, if you can switch targets mid-dash and you have opponents to both sides then that would seem like a hard-but-viable strategy, you could dash to either one of them and then switch targets mid-dash to force that same situation. if your teammate can keep the other enemy locked down then that seems like it would be pretty lethal
Soku?
Soku gaming?
>>3070Oh damn I somehow missed this post despite manually updating thread.
I miss when dollchan worked here…Anyways hop on 5.16.27.140:10800 with giuroll!
soku?
>>3074ggs, well played
man i hate 4sc rocks some times, not because they're broken but because everytime someone uses it against me i have to eat like 20 boulders to the face and whenever i use it the RNG gods decide the opponent has to block like 2 tiny pebbles at most
soku?
>>3075Same here, I grew to dislike it because of RNG as of late. And I guess also because in most cases it only gives me safe approach but nothing else, even if I catch opponent in air I just can't break them with only one flight-reset left.
>>3077soku!
84.10.221.254:10800
>>3072Dollchan works if you modify a specific line, replacing
this._initCaptcha();
with
if (location.hostname !== 'wapchan.org' && location.hostname !== '39chan.moe') {
this._initCaptcha();
}
I'll provide a fork for this soon
>>3079GGs, thanks for the games.
test
>>3083Actually wait a second it might be working, but using another post form. No ctrl+v images this way though…
>>3085working on a modified captcha that should be out later today. will try to address
Soku
>>3088Hop on 5.16.27.140:10800 with giuroll!
>>3089GGs
Terrible performance for me today but the last games I did better than the earlier ones.
I feel like Aya's j5A (the orange fan)? is my anti j2A, I just can't win air duels against that thing.
>>3090Ggs!
> I feel like Aya's j5A (the orange fan)? is my anti j2A, I just can't win air duels against that thing.j.5A is her kick, you're probably thinking of either j.6A or j.8A. Either way Iku's j.2A should outrange both of them, so it's problem of your spacing and zoning.
soku?
>>3086New captcha breaks any posting field except very top one (bottom posting field is broken without dollchan as well).
>>3093Hop on 176.213.227.76:10800 with giuroll! (gonna go afk for 5 mins after posting this though)
>>3094Bottom field should work fine, you might have to force reload
Haven't done dollchan testing since this took longer than expected but I can start on that now and hopefully push a fix soon
Looked into it, you may just need to force refresh (I think it was loading old JS which caused that error)
>>3094GGs, thanks for the games.
New day, new confirmation how broken spin is. Feels like only case when it's punishable is blocking it in corner when it's blocked on first frame, Yukari ends up tightly close to you, and only with fastest jabs.
>>3097Ggs! You can't tell me you're not trying to prolong games and then bring THAT Aya deck, this one was 100% on purpose.
>>3096Captcha is showing now, but dollchan posting fields only eat posts without actually sending them.
Soku gaming?
>>3102Hop on 37.112.22.12:10800 with giuroll!
>>3103GGs
I had one good match were I did everything right, I want to share the replay here for others to judge and point out what did I did right and what could be improved.
Also I don't understand how auto block works, the moment I let off the 4 key I get hit inmediately (this happens when I'm trying to BE)
>>3105This one was more of when I did everything wrong, but you sure did see and punish it. Aside from punishes, your bullet cover was rather oppressive like it should be.
> Also I don't understand how auto block works, the moment I let off the 4 key I get hit inmediately (this happens when I'm trying to BE)It works as long as you're in blockstun, so it likely happened when you tried to BE from stuff that inflicts little blockstun like jabs or light bullets.
More soku gaming?
anyone wanna try soku 2 and/or tag?
>>3108Hop on 5.165.188.49:10800 with giuroll!
>>3109I'd be up for tag a bit later in the evening.
>>3110>I'd be up for tag a bit later in the eveningsure, works for me
>>3105Yeah that was pretty good all around
>and what could be improvedI'd try to practice limiting from some of the simpler starters, e.g. 0:29 you can get an easy limit off CH j2A by just doing (f5A) > 6A > 22B. Getting a knockdown is far more valuable than some additional damage, in that case you can even see you immediately lose momentum and get forced into block because of missing that limit. Same in 0:34, it was probably better to force the knockdown first and then use Veils (although I'd rather save it, maybe declare that other skill instead). Using replay takeover to try limiting off of the dropped combos in that replay would probably be good practice. Once you are very comfortable with the easy limit combos you can move on into the more optimized stuff.
Speaking of Veils, keep in mind spirit consumption is still the same as usual, so if you fly for an extended period of time you just drain your own spirit and get crushed like in 0:49. It's better to graze on the ground where it's literally free, and if you are in the air then abuse airdashes more often since they are also free.
>point out what did I did rightThe sequence in 1:03 is pretty cool, j5C helps keep the opponent pinned and the imminent crush threat makes 236B BE catch very good to finish off the round. That's more or less what good pressure should look like, ideally you have to work to drain the opponent's spirit in a way that forces situations like those.
Also the neutral is more in line with what Iku likes, i.e. bullying the opponent with max range land cancel j2As and constant j6C snipes if they try to play a long distance game. If anything the few cases where you try to forcefully fly in you can see why it doesn't work as well, partly because Aya's frame data is just hard to contest with but also because Iku doesn't really favor that kind of neutral play.
>Also I don't understand how auto block works, the moment I let off the 4 key I get hit inmediately (this happens when I'm trying to BE)What the other guy said, if you are stuck in block and then, before blockstun ends, you get hit again, the game will block automatically for you. You HAVE to be in blockstun, as soon as it ends you are on your own. Also there is this really stupid thing this game does where if blockstun ends but you get hit exactly the next frame after blockstun is over, then that doesn't count for auto block anymore even though there is technically no gap between blockstun and the hit. That's what's displayed as a 0f gap.
Moral of the story is, don't rely too much on auto block. It really is just there so you don't have to worry too much about multihits, but you can't expect it to save you from common pressure.
>>3113Ggs!
> I think it's funny how Aya's 66C can go over a crouching Alice's head. Haven't seen it before.It goes over obscene amount of things, can't remember for sure but it might even go over standing Suika and most likely sprinting Reisen/Sakuya. Rather stupid move to spam but I still love it.
>>3111Gimmie like 15 minutes for break and we're good to go.
>>3111Hosted, hop on 5.165.189.208:10800!
>>3111How do you use helper's bomb? I think I did something like Reimu's system card but it's not exactly what I expected and I also don't know how I did it lol.
>>3116Helper's spellcard I meant.
>>3111Ggs! TagSoku is just a lot fun as I expected. Aya+Yuyu is a nice combo, finally I can have both speed and proper bullet coverage, and even lasers! Yuyu+Aya kinda sucks on the other hand, support tengu drum is short and uncontrollable and rest of Aya's skillset is just garbage.
Now I want to fix 4P variation of it even more.
>>3115ggs, thanks for hosting. looks like desyncs can still happen with this mod, but at least they don't seem very frequent at all and the game itself lets you know when that happens. also unfortunately it looks like it doesn't support replays which sucks because there were a bunch of funny clips
i loved it though, there are so many cool funny/broken setups you could find, i even had something new in mind as well but unfortunately i didn't get to pull it off in a game so maybe next time. it really looks quite fleshed out, it would probably be fun to just sit down and lab with each of the assist types
>>3120Also just remembered that I saw some "twilight" weather, any idea on what is that?
> looks like desyncs can still happen with this mod, but at least they don't seem very frequent at all and the game itself lets you know when that happensAh, that moment when game went back to character select after Suwako got in butterfly disco was a desynch?
>>3121>I saw some "twilight" weather, any idea on what is that?i'm pretty sure it caused faster assist cooldown regeneration. if it's anything like Hail then that would probably mean higher assist damage too, but i'm not sure about that
>after Suwako got in butterfly disco was a desynch?yeah, in my screen you were just using random cards from full screen. there was a red "DESYNC" text at the bottom left corner too
>>3112Thank you very much.
soku?
soku
i wonder what percentage of posts in these threads are just "soku"…
soku!
>>3126This thread actually has a lot more discussion than previous ones, but overall I estimate around 50% including variations and excluding ggs.
>>3125>>3127I'll be up in about an hour from now.
soku in wap lobby
can switch to 2 and/or tag too if anyone wants to play that
Soku gaming?
>>3131Oh nevermind, I wonder what exactly caused that lol.
Alice's kicks… Always hit like first time…
>>3134Ggs! Sorry for the net troubles, it decided to shit self really hard right when soku time started.
When it's the next tourney?
soku
>>313784.10.221.254:10800
soku!
>>3139thread auto-updater broke on me, my bad. I can join now if you're still available
Soku gaming?
>>3145Sure, not for long though. Hop on 5.16.26.227:10800 with giuroll!
ah well that figures, internet's not having it today. GGs
soku?
Soku gaming?
>>3151Hop on 5.16.26.58:10800 with giuroll!
>>3153Let me reboot my router, these lagspikes suck ass.
>>3152>>3155GGs
Once again Aya's pressure has no gaps unless you make one mistake, which is what I account for sometimes.
>>3156Ggs!
> Once again Aya's pressure has no gaps unless you make one mistake, which is what I account for sometimes.I sweated hard about my pressure today, but I still can't make instant air 236 reset without a skillcard (it also is quite dependant on spacing on lvl0). Also, direct counter to gapless pressure is to just BE out of it, I have to choose between predictability (there are only so many ways to have spirit-draining tight pressure) and leaving myself space to react to BEs.
Also I think I'm starting to finally feel Aya's j.5A extended hitbox, a lot more of them landed on good distance today.
soku
>>3159Hop on 37.112.19.87:10800 with giuroll!
>>3160ggs, sorry for the interruptions i had a whole bunch of things come up mid set
it was funny playing frog more degenerately though, 22x is so stupidly dense even with no charge
thanks for hosting
>>3161Ggs! In one game I just experimented how many 6Cs can mustard gas delete, and it seems it's minimum 4.
Also, what happened on the webm? It happened many times before but I thought it was because of mustard gas debuff, this time however there was no mustard gas yet I still got guardcrushed with almost full orbs on rightblock.
>>3162final hit of dial A is an instant crush, just like Suika/Okuu/Komachi
>>3162also it hits twice and both hits crush so if you rightblock the first one but wrongblock the second one you still get crushed like in that webm
>>3165it's great because i can delay it to match the 5AAA landcancel reset timing and you just have to guess whether to block high and wrongblock the reset or block low and get guardcrushed instantly. even if you try to move and get caught, it leads into a high damage limit combo
pretty cool move
more soku?
>>3171ggs, been a while since i last played such a long set
was fun, thanks for hosting
>>3158Seems like we have enough people for proper 2vs2 soku today, yippie! I suggest we start at 13:00 GMT unless there are any objections.
Just in case for newcomer - to play you'll need
https://parsec.app/ and preferably a gamepad/make virtual one out of your keyboard, otherwise you'll have to play with alternative keyboard controls.
>>3173It's up at
https://parsec.gg/g/332vnhGLvZzMGsmbOGg6AY08886/95a8bb59/In case I don't notice and let you in for too long write here.
>>3176Bwuh? Let me restart parsec, not sure why it broke this time.
>>3173>I suggest we start at 13:00 GMT unless there are any objectionsdidn't see this earlier, i'll join in a few minutes
>>3179ggs but i gotta leave now
might be able to play some more later if fourth player eventually drops by
>>3181Ggs and thanks for coming! I could get it up again if we get reply from fourth player as well before 19:00 GMT.
Usual soku gaming?
>>3184Brb I'll reboot my PC, soku mysteriously became unbearably laggy without any lagspikes and not showing it on FPS counter.
>>3186Ggs! Sorry for short set but my game is cursed now or something, not sure how noticeable is it on webm but 20fps stutters like during Alice's kick were constant and rather frustrating today.
Any idea why did would appear? I thought it's window resizing mods or OBS acting funny but they remained regardless when I tried turning them off.
>>3188Actually I might have just fixed that, want to try again?
>>3189Sure, rehosting
>>3184
soku?
>>3192Yes.
89.254.224.17:10800
>>3192GGs, thanks for the games. Komachi's approach angles are really difficult to counter as Aya, I feel like I'm forced to try to set up with 6C instead of playing patient ground neutral.
more soku?
>>3196ggs, thanks for hosting
>Komachi's approach angles are really difficult to counteryeah that's just not going to happen, j2A covers literally every angle below her and it's all disjointed so you simply can't contest that. the goal is to stop her from spamming high jump right on top of you, which isn't all that hard since the rest of her aerials are pretty mediocre at best. once she gets in position for a j2A jump-in though you kinda just have to take the cross-up attempt and the pressure that follows
soku?
>>319989.254.244.131:10800
Soku gaming?
>>3202Hop on 5.16.29.11:10800 with giuroll!
>>3203GGs, thanks for the games. Alice's 3A is such a funny move: an air-blockable anti-air that's so slow, it's already too late to use it when you need it. As a cherry on top, it also has deadzone right in front of Alice and doesn't lead to limit most of the time. I feel like someone at Tasofro hated this move with a passion…
>>3204GGs
Man I hate when characters have melee attacks that fucking graze, it's so broken, Aya has one, Yuyuko has how many???
It's so cheap…
>>3206Ggs! Baiting hangekis/reversals into 5c tornado is cool, but baiting 4c with protracted invincibility on it is whole another level of pleasure, haven't had my face as smug as during this moment for quite a while.
> Man I hate when characters have melee attacks that fucking graze, it's so broken, Aya has one, Yuyuko has how many???I thought that everyone's 66C grazes but now that I checked apparently there are few characters who don't have graze on either 66B or 66C. Lol.
Anyways, Aya's and Yuyu's graze attacks have huge frame disadvantage on block and can only be saved by air-usable spellcards (which Yuyu doesn't have many), so just block and punish and don't hope to bully characters without much bullet density too much with your own shooting.
Also more soku gaming?
soku in lobby (tiredform: almost incoherent brawling mode)
Haven't made the image yet but the tournament will be on the 18th
>>3209Hop on 5.16.29.11:10800 with giuroll!
>>3212Oops actually nevermind it's another type of gaming time already, maybe later today.
soku?
>>3215trying to do pressure is difficult, my condolences
great games to both of you
please try not to swear
it's unbecoming
Soku gaming?
soku in lobby
More soku gaming?
>>3223Sounds good for me.
>>3224ready, i'll be in the lobby
more soku in lobby
soku?
soku in lobby
GGs, Alice player! I've only started to get a feel for how to beat her towards the end (in part because you learned to dodge 5a(1-3) -> 5c attempts), but every game it was like facing the final boss and that was neat.
>>3229GGs! It means a lot to hear that from someone who used to be
my final boss in the not-so-distant past. Thanks for playing, hope to see you soon.
>>3225I'm in need of some spoonfeeding again it seems.
1) Is there foolproof anti-DP oki aside from gambling on block?
2) Is there such a thing as untight anti-DP blockstring at all? Webmrel was my best attempt at resetting it but I just don't have enough spirit to even check DP at all times, not even mentioning how 5Bs murder total spirit damage.
3) How do I counter Meiling's… Basically everything, but most importantly 6f jab, vastly superior in regards of range j.5A and literally impenetrable bullet walls out of which these nasty moves + j.2A come out of seemingly unpunishable.
And replays in case I missed anything worth noting about them.
https://files.catbox.moe/c91ck4.rephttps://files.catbox.moe/vzxcse.rephttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h748R0nfHVI&pp=0gcJCfwJAYcqIYzvhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CuC66YNTsY
>>3231>1) Is there foolproof anti-DP oki aside from gambling on block?No, because DP itself is a callout. It's a callout that DP user's opponent will attack on block while being in their range. To beat that, you block it once, then do a full combo to show a DP user that losing a DP gamble is a costly adventure. It gets better from here, as they have to pick their moments better and as you learn during which moments the DP will usually come out.
In other words, predicting whether a player will DP on every potential individual instance of it possibly landing is a tall order, but you can mitigate it by blocking when you think it would happen and connect. Baiting it out isn't impossible.
In general:
If you see a Marisa 623 DP card right on top of her card bar: she can use it with a single button press.
If you see a Marisa 623 DP card second from the top of her card bar: she can use it with two quick button presses. This is scarier to do (and, potentially, scarier to face).
If you do not see a Marisa 623 DP card anywhere on her card bar - AND she didn't use it in a match: Her Level 0 623B DP does NOT have invulnerability frames. You can hit her right out of it - she can't hit you with it from wakeup if you attack her out of it (Generally, there could be exceptions that let her trade. That kind of tech is an exception rather than the rule).
If you do not see a Marisa 623 DP card anywhere on her card bar, but she HAS used it earlier - she can use her DP by inputting the 623B button sequence over the span of about half a second to two thirds of a second. That is a sizeable window! She can time it to do it on wakeup, but doing that in a middle of a gap in a non-airtight string directly out of blockstun is superplayer-level execution. Don't count on that happening.
>2) Is there such a thing as untight anti-DP blockstring at all? Webmrel was my best attempt at resetting it but I just don't have enough spirit to even check DP at all times, not even mentioning how 5Bs murder total spirit damage.I'm not an expert on Aya, but resets on faster characters like Aya and Marisa are difficult to do. Characters like Reisen can manage airtight corner strings that you must Border Escape out of, but some characters don't get that. I try to abuse High Jumps and down-dashes (down-dash into j.5a into land cancel into more pressure works nicely when it works), but sometimes it just doesn't work out and people escape, so Marisa's strings aren't tight either, there's gaps too. If you're not sure whether you are doing optimal execution, you can check the wiki and find out.
>3) How do I counter Meiling's… Basically everything, but most importantly 6f jab, vastly superior in regards of range j.5A and literally impenetrable bullet walls out of which these nasty moves + j.2A come out of seemingly unpunishable.No clue, I don't main Aya. If I really had to, spamming B's at close range and trying to spam air melee and pokes from bullet cover would be my pick.
>webmThe winning move was looking at the card bar, seeing a 623 in there and holding block after finishing the string to (potentially) bait it out. I'm sorry if it's bad manners, but try to get used to DP's existing. Remilia's and Youmu's DP's are all part of their respective game plans. It might be good to get used to them existing!
>>3231>1) Is there foolproof anti-DP oki aside from gambling on block?safe jumps, lingering bullets (alternatively any bullets with proper timing), air approaches in general are paradoxically pretty good against DPs in this game since they are all blockable and give you ample time to react to a DP or lack thereof. other than that, don't expect to be able to outright beat DPs along with any other option a character may have, the whole reason for their existence is to force respect if used properly, so the main way to deal with them is just respecting the DP. exactly how much you should respect it, that's entirely up to your opponent and your ability to read them
>2) Is there such a thing as untight anti-DP blockstring at all? Webmrel was my best attempt at resetting it but I just don't have enough spirit to even check DP at all times, not even mentioning how 5Bs murder total spirit damage.see above, bullet spam outright beats DP. tacking on so many tight bullets can be really risky since they provide the opponent with a ton of safe BE spots and you'll probably be fully drained by the time you want to use a bullet to properly frame trap DPs or actually confirming a crush
>3) How do I counter Meiling's… Basically everything, but most importantly 6f jabdon't mash too much, use proper frame traps
>vastly superior in regards of range j.5Aadjust your approach angle, China j5A has a really finicky hitbox since it's quite thin and doesn't provide much vertical range, a well spaced Aya j5A will outright beat it quite often. even if you approach from below, you can j8A safely as well since it basically can't hit below
>and literally impenetrable bullet walls out of which these nasty moves + j.2A come out of seemingly unpunishable.i assume you mean j5C, in that case do not attempt to jump in within that hitbox. 5C bullets are basically Meiling's only approach tool, but they only move at a fixed distance and then stay fully in place so she can't really extend beyond that area safely. you can use that time to reposition yourself, move around to bait something or even just stay in place and wait for an overextension or retreat. in short don't jump in carelessly against that thing and you'll be fine
>video linksi'll take a look at them a bit later and then reply to this post
>>3233>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CuC66YNTsYi think i messed up a lot in that game so i'm not sure there are many good specific character interactions to see, so just a few small general things:
>0:48that string you've been using a lot lately is pretty good for corner carry BUT you have to be careful, the crouch i do there (sometimes even at the cost of eating a wrongblock like in 1:28) is precisely to make j2B whiff which can lead into a whiff punish. in that match though it went unpunished because again i fucked up and didn't come up with an answer in time, but yeah that happened in many games today so be on the lookout for that
>2:24maybe i'm too pessimistic but i don't think that position is great for 4sc. not because it's unsafe to use there, but rather because you have very low HP at that point and the HP difference is pretty massive. at some point you have to consider whether it is sensible to keep using up such expensive resources when, even if everything goes well during that spell, the comeback is so far away. personally i'd try to win neutral a couple more times until i feel a comeback is at least within grasp before using my resources as a last gambit. obviously in round 3 it would be different since it's an all-or-nothing situation, but doing that in round 2 means you use almost all your hand and still end up with a large disadvantage and now you lose such a valuable card for a hypothetical final round. obviously that decision making is part of your playstyle so if you feel really confident then go ahead, but it's still worth thinking about first rather than using it mechanically
>3:58 / 4:10i'll include both of them since they are basically the same play but from opposite sides. but in short just see that other post about how to deal with DPs, because it's essentially the same with metered reversals. first of all you have to notice opponent habits with reversals, and every piece of information helps. for example i already know you always show your 5sc at the top of your hand rather than quick-cycling into it when you intend to use it, so the instant i see that in the first slot i have to change how i try to pressure. simply mixing that up can already make a huge difference. if you have a reversal in a random slot then the other person will be less likely to be ready for it. being able to quick cycle through your hand with precision is kinda hard, but it helps a lot against people who can bait out reversals
also when you deal with those you really have to mind your gaps, in the first timestamp i basically just do completely tight pressure and then dash block/airblock until i can confirm i can start another tight string that won't leave random gaps in the middle, even if it's suboptimal pressure. it helps that tornado is pretty slow so i can safely start a string with 2A and still block on reaction to spellflash. in the second case, from 3:46 i can already gather that you prefer to go for your air-to-ground blockstring without respecting the high damage reversal i'm showing at the top of my hand, so yeah the next time you try to go for that i actually use it and it works
>>3233>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h748R0nfHVI
>0:49pretty good example of what i mean by quick-cycling making reversals unpredictable, i probably would have got hit by that DP too, and after that i'd have to keep in mind that i need to watch out for at least the first two cards in the opponent's hand
>1:41Typhoon shows up on the forecast here, and given your low HP and low damage output your priority should be to force a different weather. you didn't have any spells and hitting the opponent is unreliable, but you have another easy option which is to instead take yourself a knockdown (obviously don't just sandbag and get yourself combo'd). 1:45 was the perfect chance, but that tech habit really screwed you over. that's yet another reason to avoid autopiloting airtechs, you can accidentally end up checkmating yourself
other than that, i feel this one comes down to simple mistakes in neutral. trying to fly in at all costs and from big distances makes approaches very easy to react to. 0:30, 0:33, 0:39 are all instances in quick succession of you simply holding forward+D and running straight into an attack because of that, and also with no bullets either which means the opponent had no reason to move or do something that might get them hit
also it's pretty good to know the opponent's immediate threat range. i mention that specifically because of 0:42, Marisa 6C might not be a real laser but it's still a quick bullet that will snipe you and it confirms into Master Spark at any range, so it's not really something you can brush off as a stray hit. it doesn't come up too often in this replay but it's important to know when playing neutral and it's really, really crucial in some specific match ups like Remilia or Alice
>>3235>0:18I'll also add that this combination shouldn't work as often as it does. As you can see here, Marisa Border Escapes forward from an air string, hits and starts her own combo. If you notice shenanigans like that, you can try to stagger j.5a -> j.5a or maybe even 214 to catch it. You can consider using this trick yourself too, it catches some people off-guard.
>>3232One thing I don't fully get is, can't you just react to me attacking/not attacking instead of buffering DP card? Even my fastest move 2A has more total frames than DP's startup so DP on reaction should be possible in all (grounded at least) cases. I guess it's a bit preemptive thought since I died from buffered DPs, but still.
> If you're not sure whether you are doing optimal execution, you can check the wiki and find out.Aya's blockstring page only features very basics that I already know and dead links for completely nonsensical stuff. I noticed that's a quite frequent situation for wiki, it rarely tells useful stuff that I had to discover myself but has loads of stuff that I see neither in my games nor in other's replays.
> I'm sorry if it's bad manners, but try to get used to DP's existing. Remilia's and Youmu's DP's are all part of their respective game plans. It might be good to get used to them existing!Next you tell me get used to neutral and grabs existing… Jokes aside I do try to adapt to them, I just hate to get stripped of initiative like that. Marisa's DP isn't even the worst in the game, at least it is punishable on block and with bulletspam, Yukari's bullshit on the other hand…
>>3233> don't mash too much, use proper frame trapsAbout that, does Aya even have any punishing frametraps up close even? Timing 2A is an option but without 5c it's kinda sad to receive 200-400 damage while risking full combo on self. 5AAA is always safely blocked and I can't go from 5AA to 2A to make it at least somewhat intimidating as it has resulting -3f disadvantage.
> adjust your approach angle, China j5A has a really finicky hitbox since it's quite thin and doesn't provide much vertical range, a well spaced Aya j5A will outright beat it quite often. even if you approach from below, you can j8A safely as well since it basically can't hit belowIf by spacing you mean being above Meiling so Aya's j.5A gives a headshot, then I fail to see why would Meiling player use it instead of j.8A/j.2A in the first place (and high hit of j.2A is even worse to contest).
Approaches from below are usually better indeed, but often when I tried it j.2B came and this is also an impenetrable wall for Aya as 6C can't really clear higher bullets.
> i assume you mean j5C, in that case do not attempt to jump in within that hitbox. 5C bullets are basically Meiling's only approach tool, but they only move at a fixed distance and then stay fully in place so she can't really extend beyond that area safely.But then next rainbow ring comes from inside of previous one, and then I'm forced to move either towards opponent (going up is still towards opponent since we're positioned diagonally) or back off and corner myself where things get even more grim.
I didn't get tp play with the guy who Meilings hard too much lately to illustrate these things, but I'll be sure to bring them next time.
>>3234> the crouch i do there (sometimes even at the cost of eating a wrongblock like in 1:28) is precisely to make j2B whiff which can lead into a whiff punishOh damn, I thought it whiffed because I inputted j.5B by mistake but after tests j.2B does whiff in 99% of cases. Gotta check the rest of the cast for this then.
> from 3:46 i can already gather that you prefer to go for your air-to-ground blockstring without respecting the high damage reversal i'm showing at the top of my hand, so yeah the next time you try to go for that i actually use it and it worksFunny thing, that time I actually wanted to bait it and quickly backdash out of it but got greedy for 236 chip damage before that.
>>3236Lvl0 214 would probably be too slow without hard read, air-to-air staggers sound quite interesting though, never really considered them before. Gravity might be an issue, but I guess that's another reason to position self higher at all times.
Thanks for your thoughts everyone, now I have some thinking of mine going from them as well.
asdasdasd
I wonder if it's doing it again
host up in lobby
More soku gaming in lobby?
>>3238Ggs! I feel like I ate even more DPs in even more unexpected situations today, but less obvious DPs and I was still experimenting, so I'll take it as a progress.
>>3239sure i'll join in a couple minutes
>>3237>does Aya even have any punishing frametraps up close even?the goal of frame traps isn't dealing big damage, the goal of frame traps is deterring the opponent from mashing so you can start going for more damaging pressure. it doesn't matter if it's 400 dmg because if done properly the opponent won't be doing any damage at all so it's a net loss for them, that alone is enough to make the trade not worth it. if the opponent somehow still doesn't want to stop mashing and you are aware of that then that's a free CH Gust Fan combo starter, or just 5B if you wanna play it safe
>then I fail to see why would Meiling player use it instead of j.8A/j.2A in the first placejump in j8A is pretty terrible because that thing whiffs more often than not outside of very specific angles, and it has hilariously high recovery that can't be cancelled on whiff so even if the first hit connects it's still punishable. that alone makes Aya j5A approach angle extremely favorable against Meiling. j2A is indeed the best approach option for her, but the post was about j5A and that particular move is pretty mediocre. still, j2A is much better as an air-to-ground than an air-to-air, but it's probably safer to bait it and punish with a bullet instead, its horizontal range isn't that scary
>But then next rainbow ring comes from inside of previous one, and then I'm forced to move either towards opponent (going up is still towards opponent since we're positioned diagonally) or back offagain, the ring's distance is fixed. if a new one is used immediately it will basically cover the exact same area as the previous one so not much changes. it's basically a shield that prevents the opponent from trying to jump in against Meiling while she approaches, but it doesn't really force anything in neutral unless you are already backed to a corner. you can move in and out to try to force a bad approach, use that time to set up something yourself or simply sit in place and react to whatever she tries to do next.
Even more soku gaming?
Was there a trick to make the AI die faster in pofv? I can recall there was but I forgot.
>>3246does picking Aya or Medicine count as a trick
>>3246Dying a couple of times to them?.. As far as I'm concerned PoFV's AI has hidden timer like in extra mode and can dodge in bullshitiest situations if it really wants to unless you pick character that breaks it. And that timer is lower with each spent extend.
>>3249Yeah seems like my memory was faulty then.
Soku gaming?
>>3252I'll be up in 20 minutes from now, gotta eat dinner first.
>>3253sure just host when ready
>>3254Hop on 5.16.27.147:10800 with giuroll!
>>3256ggs, both Static Green and Emerald City are grazeable, yes
thanks for hosting
soku
>>3258i can play a few games if you're still up
>>3259to the wapchan lobby
GGs. Rare chance I get to run a set with your Sakuya, so I think now's a good time to ask, do you have any advice on how I could've handled it better?
>>3261ggs, i wanted to polish her up a bit since these past few weeks i feel i have been playing her pretty poorly
>do you have any advice on how I could've handled it better?try considering more options during oki cards, i.e. instant BE, more techrolls, pretty much everything you can do to mix up options will help make the setup harder to land
also try baiting out defensive cards more often, Sakuya's defense is awful and so is her techroll so if you are able to get past the defensive system cards you can bully her pretty badly and capitalize much better off of any neutral win
Practice Soku
>>3263Hop on 37.112.19.164:10800 with giuroll!
>>3264wtf give me a second
OH YEAH I DID IIIIIIIT! Not in a form of a blockstring but it is 421C->5c and not some stray hit still. Feels good man.
>>3267Ggs!
>>3268I think that webm perfectly summarizes my problem in this game, I'm trying to evade and escape to gain space and I get hit from anything on any angle, I really don't understand anything.
Why did I get hit there? I was grazing bullets….
>>3269Notice
> counter hitYou certainly did try to pull off something funny here, and overall I notice I get a lot of counterhits on you. Know when your turn is over and concede when you have to pass it, and most importantly know your opponent's danger zones - from how much distance and how fast can you be hit.
A bit more soku gaming?
>>3270>>counter hitDamn I might have tried something…
>Know when your turn is overThis is the knowledge that I need to work for yeah.
>>3271I can play another set, I'm waiting for something anyways.
>>3273Hop on 37.112.19.218:10800!
>>3274GGs
You have a lot of talent, you can already pick up new characters and roll out.
Also of course this
>>3268 attack is invulnerable….
Yeah, who else could it be safely flying right through oarfishot if not Alice…
>>3273Ggs again!
>>3275> You have a lot of talent, you can already pick up new characters and roll out.It's more of a combination of characters being simple to use and me finally confidently knowing at least basic fundamentals.
I wouldn't say I can decently play even my supposedly secondary main Yuyu still, in my hands she's mostly saved by low entry skill level to use, higher minimal skill-effort level to fight against and favourable matchups.
>>3278I think I have not mastered the basic fundamentals of the game yet. Learning combos and setups takes a couple of hours and make a difference but they don't guarantee wins, it's something else that is really basic that I'm missing and I don't know what it is, when I play against random "beginners" on the soku lobbies they play around the same level as the average person here, which makes me think that everyone else learned something in soku school (lol) that I didn't.
>>3279"If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles."
Or something like that. To win you need to know what opponent does and what you have against it, including both framedata knowledge for standoffs and general gameplan/neutral thought process of opponent, ideally picking optimal counter each time. After you know what are possibilities, which of them to expect most and what are your options you'll start seeing opportunities. For starters you can check few replays and see how exactly do you get hit most, there's bound to be certain pattern to it, and think of what you could've done to counter/prevent it. Then rinse and repeat, preferably it should happen during the games as you can test out your new ideas right away abd scrap/adopt them. I don't always do that myself honestly, but thoughtful and conscious gaming is how you get better over time.
>>3279>Learning combos and setups takes a couple of hours and make a difference but they don't guarantee winsNo one thing will guarantee wins, it's a sum of all your separate skills that can give you an edge in a match. Speaking purely statistically, killing someone in 7 combos or in 4 with good optimization has a very big impact. That means you have to win neutral 3 more times, almost twice as much, just to close off a round. That means that even if the rest of your skills are at the exact same level, you will have to put in almost twice the effort in order to win rounds.
The point is not that you can get good entirely through good execution, but rather that any singular advantage you can get over the opponent will be equivalently important to reach the end goal of beating somebody else. If instead of working on your execution you improve your neutral to the point where you can win exchanges more consistently, the end result will be the same.
>it's something else that is really basic that I'm missing and I don't know what it isIf I had to guess from the posts above, it's probably a lack of full intentionality in your play. Honestly speaking, are you really 100% comfortable maneuvering your character at the moment? Obviously aside from flubs or misinputs in exceptional cases, are you really in full control of everything you do in a match? It's one thing if you make a lot of bad decisions or if your opponent reads you inside out, but it's an entirely different problem if you can't do what you want to do or if you're not even sure what you just did and why you did it.
Something beginners tend to do a lot is not pay attention to the rest of the screen because they are constantly looking at what their character is doing. This ties in with the issue above, because if you really are in full control of your character then you should already know what you are doing without having to watch over your character all the time. It's just like in a shmup, where you don't need to look at your hitbox the whole time because you should already be in control of your movement, and if you do then you won't be able to read the bullets coming your way. Except in this case movement and attacking is way more intricate and complex. The need for information is the same though, so this can't be an excuse to not pay attention to the rest of the screen.
So using this webm as an example
>>3268, a counter-hit can only happen if you press something, but it looks like you weren't sure what happened. Did you really want to press a button there, while you already had a bullet on top of you? If you didn't then why did you do it regardless? And if you did then also why? Were you unaware that you were already sitting on top of a bullet? Were you expecting to be outside of its hitbox by the time you pressed something? Answering these honestly might lead you to the core issue.
>>3280Yeah you are right, I tend to learn things on the go rather than to analyze things, the former has provide me more results since I look for "eureka" moments while trying everything from any angle, it's not perfect but it works sometimes, of course I try more methodical approaches after sitting down and reading about the game's technical knowledge and my own replays, and it gives me certain ideas that I bring to a new game, and works at the first time, only to get already learned by the opponent now I'm back to square one.
My current skill with this character has been achieved with 70% of what I said above, as in brute forcing solutions and 30% by-the-book knowledge.
>>3281>Honestly speaking, are you really 100% comfortable maneuvering your character at the moment?No, definitively not and this applies to the other characters as well, I admit I'm not completely used to the movement of this fightan.
>The point is not that you can get good entirely through good execution, but rather that any singular advantage you can get over the opponent will be equivalently important to reach the end goal of beating somebody else.How I see it my execution is terrible that's why I lose neutral and I can't use the things I learned like the combos or setups and when I do get to use them it feels like it was a stroke of luck rather than skill. Like in the other post, I don't have a basic mindset for this game, I'm just running around seeing if I can execute things and win.
>Something beginners tend to do a lot is not pay attention to the rest of the screen because they are constantly looking at what their character is doing.Huh it's the opposite for me, I have laser focus on the opponent instead because my playstyle relies more on reaction rather than outsmarting and trapping the opponent, as I'm looking for gaps were they make mistakes so I can take advantage of them. I guess it explains why I get hit by random things but it's a bad habit that may work for other games but doesn't seem to work here.
>Answering these honestly might lead you to the core issue.After seeing the replay seems like I pressed block first then A, I don't why honestly, thinking about it now I might have thought that
>I grazed this bullet, I'm going to block just in case, then I'm going to press A if the opponent wants to jump so I will go first (because this happens often, so I try to anticipate) But because I was my first time seeing this Yuyuko attack, I didn't expect it to happen, I have this bad habit of thinking that because I grazed bullets they will no longer do me harm even if they are still active so I attack ( happens a lot with Patchy's ring of fire)
Or could have been me missclicking something, I don't know…
>>3282>I admit I'm not completely used to the movement of this fightan.Then that should be your #1 priority. Movement in these games is absolutely key, transitioning too slowly between graze states, hard landings and other movement flubs are the easiest way to die to bullet spam, and that's without talking about spacing.
>How I see it my execution is terrible that's why I lose neutral and I can't use the things I learned like the combos or setupsThen there's good and bad news for you. The good news is that cleaning up execution is usually the easiest task in the process of improving. The bad news is that it's also the lamest part about it as well. As expected, execution is mostly a matter of doing things over and over again, until they become ingrained in muscle memory. You can try to do drills for specific sequences. For example you can set a CPU in training mode to spam huge range spells like LRE or Royal Flare and then try to graze the entirety of them while going from ground to air, air to ground, implementing airdashes and so on. For combos and strings there's that combo trials mod thing which might be worth checking out. Practicing combos is good not necessarily for the combos themselves, but because they help you get a better feel for your character's timings, like cancel windows or recovery times. It doesn't matter if you can't do a super optimized combo in a match, but if it helps you learn by instinct when you can cancel an airdash into an aerial or how early you can movement cancel certain bullets then that's already a huge win.
Honestly after that you could even try to fight against CPUs and try to do the things you find difficult as often as you can, in the end it's a completely mechanical skill so you don't need to play good neutral or defense or anything else to get better at it. You can focus on that when you play someone else.
As a sidenote, if you really find it extremely hard to do even the simplest actions consistently, then you might wanna reconsider your controller scheme of choice. The priority should be that you are comfortable with your controller so you can fight the opponent instead of fighting the game. There are many ways to do it, some people prefer using their right hand to move, some prefer WASD, some prefer jumping with space bar, and so on. Yes, it does take a while to relearn stuff if you change keys or even devices, but it's worth considering if you feel you are being hindered by an external factor.
>I don't have a basic mindset for this gameAnother reason why learning some combos is good is because they can help you with this. When you start out and only know few combos from a couple starters, you can make it your goal to land those starters as often as possible. In that case your gameplan now has a goal, which is creating opportunities to land those moves. Is it a good gameplan by itself? Of course not, but it's enough to have a goal in mind and then you can start building on top of that. Maybe you can abuse your range to find those hits safely, or maybe you have to set up certain bullets to force the opponent into them, or maybe something else. But once you have a specific goal in mind, it's much easier to play around it and then see how your opponent reacts so you can start adapting accordingly.
>I guess it explains why I get hit by random thingsIf you get hit by random bullets then that's usually a movement mistake, you shouldn't be getting hit by random melee moves if you are really looking at your opponent that closely.
>seems like I pressed block first then AThe issue is, flight has a slight recovery before you are able to block, and if you had blocked successfully then the j.5A wouldn't have come out since you would have been stuck in blockstun. So in that case, that would be an execution error since you didn't account for the time you are unable to block during flight. That really seems like you would benefit a lot from getting more comfortable with movement.
>>3283I'm going to sleep now but thanks for this response! I will read this later, for now I ask what's the best way to learn proper movement and to dodge/graze efficiently in this game?
>>3284>for now I ask what's the best way to learn proper movementRemember the options you have available for graze movement, so ground dash, high jump, flight and airdash. Your goal should be to transition between all of them seamlessly. A good way to practice this is by doing what I mentioned earlier
>set a CPU in training mode to spam huge range spells like LRE or Royal Flare and then try to graze the entirety of themTry doing ground dash > high jump > 1 airdash > 1 flight back to the ground and then rinse and repeat. Afterwards you can omit dash or airdash, but the other two are still important since they're the only way to go from ground to air and air to ground while still grazing. You could also watch replays from other players and try to replicate their movement routes. The goal is to be able to do it automatically so it's not just about getting it right once, ideally you wanna be able to do it without even thinking about it. Also try exploring different ways to input a motion, like 8D vs 28 for high jump (same with hj7 and hj9) or 6D vs 66 for dash. You might find different uses for each of them.
>and to dodge/graze efficiently in this game?Flight is the only inefficient graze method. That's because it costs spirit, unlike any other type of graze movement. This matters because certain spells are what's called Type-2 bullets, which means they drain spirit when you try to graze them. If you apply flight cost on top of that, you will end up killing yourself against these spells very quickly, which you might have already seen whenever someone tries to fly through Royal Flare or Swimming Oarfish Shot. Obviously flight has the advantage of freedom of movement which is very useful, but you still have to be careful with it.
Your goal is spend as much of your graze time in dash/high jump/airdash states. Dash is the easiest since you only have to hold 6D, but that will just make you run head first into your opponent's attacks. That's where high jumps and the aerial options come into play. If you are focusing on defensive grazing then you'll mostly use flight to fly back to the ground, while avoiding hard landing of course.
Once you can do that you can start mixing some bullets in between, which you can also cancel into high jumps/airdashes to maximize your graze time while still being able to fight back. You can also throw in some land cancel aerials, e.g airdash/flight > land cancel j.2A > instant high jump or something like that. But that becomes easier once you are comfortable with general movement.
>>3285How do I avoid hard landing?
>>3286Let go of the dash button before touching the ground
Soku gaming?
>>3289Hop on 5.16.29.37:10800 with giuroll!
>>3289Hop on 5.16.29.37:10800 with giuroll!
>>3293Ggs! I'm still not quite on level to challenge you on BO30 distances, but up to BO9 it sure is competitive now.
Also just realized that I've been using my general deck with 2 coins and hangeki all this time instead of full firepower one. I'm starting to get the idea of coin but it's USELESS against Alice and it was awful when 3/5 of my hand was filled with defensive cards I don't use. Deckonomicks is hard…
Soku tournament 10 tomorrow
>>3295